Ep. 3: The beauty of music

Jill: Here we go. Welcome to the Listen or Don't podcast featuring raw, uncut and unfiltered conversations between two midlife girlfriends sharing their life experiences. Listen or don't either way, we'll be fine. Now with your friends, Jill and Shakira.

Shakira: You're so good at that.

Jill: Thanks

Shakira: so, so good at that. I'm glad it's you and not me.

Jill: Thanks. I know, I know. Remember, I'm here to just pull you along for my ride. It's kind of like my Red Rider.

Shakira: Thank God you got good quads. Good strong quads.

Jill: I am definitely built for a lower body workout. So I got you.

Shakira: Don't worry God, I love them so much. I could squat all day until my knees tell me I can't anymore, which is the thing now, but whatever.

Jill: t's my least favorite and most favorite day of lifting. My leg day. It's my most whining day. I complain a lot. I swear a lot. Because my trainer has me do a lot of things that are like isolated with the big muscles, and so it's just like,

Shakira: oh, yeah, I love it. I love it so much. I typically get like my, like very, what was Jada Pinkett metal band? Wicked wisdom. Like I get my my like Jada Pinkett wicked wisdom. alterego my like, ah, you know, on. If that's a thing.

Jill: it's a thing. It's a thing. It's that reminds me I forgot that you love death metal. Yeah. Oh, my God. That sounds really great. That concert that you drove me to on New Year's Eve. Oh my god at Reggie's.

Shakira: Which one was that?

Jill: I think it was called Death.

Shakira: Oh, that's a punk band. Jill.

Jill: I don't know, but it was I'm just like, I'm, I'm way too old for this yet.

Shakira: I remember. I do remember Jeff was there too. So Jeff and I had watched the documentary Death. About three black boys from Detroit who essentially founded, I think arguably to a lot of people, but founded punk rock. They started the movement so there was a lot of like, rock elements but definitely the speed of punk. They didn't have a fucking death metal growl Jill. They did not.

Jill: I thought they did. I remember there being a mosh pit. I remember you and Aaron. Yeah, the pit. And me going. I'm just too old for this. Are you sure you're thinking about the right one?

Shakira: I'm not thinking of the right one. Okay, so I think the one that me you and Aaron was Jeff there for that too.

Jill: I think so. I don't know why it would go to that. I might have went back to go by myself because I was really close with Aaron. But I might. Yeah. He might have been here for work. And then I was just like, hey, we're gonna go out to this thing, but I swear it was on New Year's Eve.

Shakira: We definitely did New year's Death. Yeah, definitely do that. That's a little more punky. But I don't remember going to a metal show. I'm sure we did. And I know you hated it.

Jill: Well, because I like heavy metal, but that was like, rage screaming. Wow. And that, like, Yeah, I'm Marilyn Manson. Yeah. Metallica.

Shakira: okay, so Metallica, fucking whales? If they do, yeah, yeah. What's that about?

Jill: Not? I don't know, did I'm not the screaming rage. Maybe it was because at that point, I really needed it. And I was rejecting it. Because now I can appreciate the screaming rage.

Shakira: God, I wish I remember what that band was. I don't ever remember. So here's the thing. Like, for those who know or who don't know, maybe even for those who don't know, what I learned about metal in that very brief relationship or situation ship you want to call it was that like classical music. Metal has sub genres. And what had turned me away from metal as a kid, and more so towards the punk neighborhood of things is that it seemed as if it was exclusionary. Like it wasn't a space that was me that I as a black young kid was invited. Whereas the punk scene felt very much like a space for misfits for those who sit on the fringes for you know. Anyone who feels not a part of can be you know, invited in. But as I've gotten older, I decided to bust through anywhere I wanted to be. You can't tell me what to do. You know, you're not my real mom. I'm 12 years old, I do what I want to do. Is that not only is not only is it also an alternative space for those who feel not a part of at least the scene itself felt that way. But there are so many sub genres or categories. That said, I'm getting to the point. The category of metal that I don't lean towards the most is the category that you describe all metal as which is death metal. So I can guarantee that that concert was not a death metal thrash concert, despite the fact that there was a mosh pit. Despite that, despite that. Are you giving me the finger? Right?

Jill: No, I just had a sip of coffee and I had a little running down my, on my face, and I'm like, Oh, shit, I'm wearing a white shirt. I don't want that to be a thing.

Shakira: I fine. You know, I'll done. I'm done. I'm done pretty well, who wants to talk more about that to me an email? No, no, no, it's fine. It's fine. I get it. Yeah, I get it too. Because when I was doing there was mansplaining. To you. And I don't want to do that either.

Jill: Here's the thing I have. I am, I'm not gonna, I'm a little music, ignorant and getting better. Mm hmm. I feel like I surround myself with people that really enjoy music, because it's not something that I grew up with. Like I grew up with, hey, you've got the eight track, you've got the old school country. That's what you listen to. But it wasn't a central point in our home. Right? Like for you. It was your it was part of your life. For Jeff. It was part of his life. Like he grew up listening to musicals and records and all of that like, and other friends that I have. It was a part of their life. It wasn't a part of my life. So it has become a bigger part of my life now, like, there is not a moment in the day, generally in our home, where there's not music playing out of the Sonos. Like there's, always backup music,

Shakira: I love that.

Jill: It's been fun to kind of like, play with it and find things that I enjoy. And like for me when Tom Petty died, that was my Michael Jackson. Because for me, I'm not that connected to Michael Jackson. But I am to Tom Petty. And when Taylor Hawkins died to the Foo Fighters, like, yeah, that was hard for me, like I'm getting those tattoos, like those are the things that are important to me, because those are the groups that I resonate with, and that I have seen the most in concert and that have given me visceral life experiences that I will always remember.

Shakira: We could absolutely have an episode about this and music and feeling in the way that you've kind of come into associating music really, with a particular feeling or emotion, like why it resonates with you. I'm curious about that. And also, why now versus why, oh, I could go on. I have so many questions for you on this. So many questions.

Jill: And we could pivot. And we could have this conversation now. Or we can set it for the next episode. What would you like to do?

Shakira: Oh, wow, I, you know, part of me feels like this is ooh, I don't know, I don't know, maybe I shouldn't even ask the question. Maybe we should just gone with it.

Jill: And we came up for reason came up for a reason.

Shakira: Girl, I love the way you think. All right, I think this might be where we're going. Let me ask you just let me just ask you a couple of questions. So first thing that I thought of, is when you said that Tom Petty, and Taylor Hawkins their deaths at the way that they impacted you, and that the music, right, you started to resonate, like whatever they were saying whatever they were doing, it really started to get to you. What I was thinking is why now? Or was, what I was thinking was was is why now? What allowed you to what has allowed you in your life to be able to associate a feeling with a sound or with a particular band? Like why now because when I think about as I know you here's the reason why I'm asking this very long as question I gotta get better at that. I think about you as I know you, I think a lot of your expansion in the course of our friendship has been in this, you know, this allowing of things and feelings to not only be vulnerable with other people, but also the relationship to things around you, including music, and it's just really, like it's really fascinating to me to see that. Growth isn't the right word, but like that association, you can call it you can call it growth if you want I think you I think you're fully fucking grown girl, fully fucking girls.

Jill: Thanks. I feel the thing that was coming up for me when you asked the question about like, sort of why now I feel like this kind of attaches to a conversation that we were having last week as well, as far as that loneliness as a kid. And in saying that there wasn't music really in my life, I feel like I had a very sheltered childhood as well. And I didn't, we didn't have those experiences. We didn't go out and do those sorts of things. We didn't go out and see live music. I was always I'm always been somebody that's open to new things. And so I think, as Jeff and I have evolved our relationship with music being so important for him, I've gone along with for the ride, you know, so I think he's the one that took me to my first concert Hootie and the Blowfish. Right, I was 20 years old, with my firt to go to my first concert, which is late in life compared to everybody else I talked to. And then, you know, then it was Eric Clapton and his pilgrim days, which was not a great era, but whatever he was going through a tough time. And then I think my third concert might have been Tom Petty, and we went to Wisconsin to Summer Fest, and it was in the outdoor amphitheater. And the moment that he came out on stage, he started playing American Girl, and the entire crowd, and I'm getting goosebumps thinking about it right now. The entire crowd sang the entire song, he literally just stood there at the edge of the stage with his arms up and complete gratitude for this crowd singing his song. And I was just like, holy shit, what a feeling. Right, like for like my third concert to be outside to be with all of that energy of people.

Shakira: Yeah, it was spectacular and interesting. So it's almost like the experience of not just the music, but the way that the music moves other people. Yes. Yeah. So I think being a part of that

Jill: being a part of the experience of something that I've never been a part of before. I think it may it opened me up to I want more of this. Like, I want me in this space, this energy of people because we are all here for the common purpose of one thing and that's a listen to great music by Tom Petty.

Shakira: Yes. Oh my god. So your experience and your positive association of being in community with other people? Yes. Which maybe speaks to that. That part of you that felt really lonely? Absolutely. And now the possibility of that loneliness dissipating while experiencing something something bigger than yourself with other people like that is what connects you not only to Tom Petty, but also what you could see the bridge of what music can possibly like, bring. Absolutely. Yeah, I love that. And that has not been, wow, I'm fascinated. So yeah, that's not been my experience, or what like initially connected me to music as my first love. I say that all the time. It's my first love my only love my true love.

Jill: What was your connection?

Shakira: Well, I think this similar part is the loneliness. Hmm, ooh, this is interesting. The similar part of it was like feeling lonely. You know, like, I definitely had a you know, like, I felt like an outsider will say like many kids like I don't I don't know if that's there's any difference there. There's probably some some traumatic events that are associated, that I can now recognize as trauma are. that are associated with that isolation. But what it did for me was it I was able to find a voice with it. So for me, it felt very much internal. And so when I'm thinking of it, I'm thinking of playing. Like practice right

Jill: now. We're just gonna say listens. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Also play instruments. Because like what instruments you all play? Like, I know you've played the cello. But what else?

Shakira: Well, in this in this instance, when I'm thinking of when I first was introduced to music, and maybe I can even go further back, I'm sure if I did like an EMDR session, which is on my list of to do things to do is to find an EMDR therapist. But if I were to, like what I am right now I'm gonna tracing it back to you is the moment that I started to play the cello. So I was in the fourth grade. And I remember not connecting initially with the cello itself, I wanted to play the violin because I wanted to be just like my aunt who was, you know, a year older than me, and she played the violin. And it was cute and small and feminine. And, you know, like that. Those are all the things that I associated with that instrument instead. There were no violins left. There were only cellos and a bass. And that's just what I ended up with, you know, in the Bill? like, that's like the most old man white guy name you could music program, in the public school, but when I played it, I remember picking it up, and like it becoming really natural for me to make a sound with a bow on strings, which is apparently not something it is not a easy task when you first start, but it felt very like oh, this is this is the amount right amount of pressure. This is the, you know, the length of a stroke. This is the way it's supposed to sound, no clue. I didn't have classical music growing up. And I remember putting my finger down on the fingerboard and it vibrating. And I remember my teacher looking at me, like, how did you learn that? I'll never forget the face on her face. How'd you learn that? And I was like, and it scared me. I was like, I thought I did something wrong. And she's like, that's incredible. But we're not starting there. And so it was very much like you're taking steps back to actually learn like, What the hell am I doing? I didn't know what I was doing. I just knew that like, oh, this makes a pretty sound. And I think it was meant to be like, I was meant to be able to use a voice that I was not able to use. It's gonna make me tear up. It's gonna make me totally tear up. It was such a gift. Like I wasn't able to communicate in a way that I wasn't able to communicate like, verbally. I wasn't able to say how I felt. I wasn't able to, to express a lot of fear outwardly, but I did that. I hid a lot. So I was I was able to not hide. So that is, it was the friend. My Machala was my friend. I named him Bill. Bill, ever thinkof, Bill I named my cello B ill.Yeah, my great. My grandfather thought it was after him. His name was William. Okay. It was after him. And so I kind of lied and was like, tell me about you like you know,

Jill: yeah, yeah. Okay. I just had an odd question popped into my brain, but whatever. Okay. Yeah.

Shakira: Yeah, there was. Yeah, my it was my friend. That's okay. Music has been my friend.

Jill: Wow. And like you said, a total gift. And yeah, I will say that of all the years that I have known you. I have never been live to hear you play. I believe at one point. You sent me a recording of you playing for like five minutes. Yeah. And I just remember thinking holy shit, because this is this is not at all a skill that I have.

Shakira: Yeah, I love it. I love it. It's still my best friend. It's got me I can I can associate music. I can associate albums. I can associate sounds I can associate. I can associate like decades or periods of my life with a particular album. I know how you feel about Radiohead. We won't talk about

Jill: I don't I mean, we're just starting this thing. I feel like it. if we get into likes and dislikes this early in the game, we're gonna lose.

Shakira: We're gonna lose people. We're gonna lose people.

Jill: which is fine. We're all here for our own opinions.

Shakira: That's right. You know, listen, or don't? Yeah,

Jill: either way. You're gonna be fine. I'm gonna be you're gonna listen to Radiohead. I'm gonna be fine. Radiohead, I will tell you this and I think I might have said this to you before. I'm not like music like you said is like something for me that I'm just getting into it. And there are certain things that I catch. I don't catch. I still don't know lyrics. Whatever. I just listen to the music and I like it. Respect. Yeah, and every time a Radiohead song comes on within like the first seconds or the first couple of beats I'm like

Shakira: you know, I think it's just because of me. I think it's just I think if I didn't tell you how much I loved that No, no,

Jill: I don't think so. There's just something melancholy about it that I don't I can't get down with and I know you like to go dark and you like to be in that place? Yeah, for me like this morning. I was dancing around the room with I'm walking on sunshine, but it has over the last couple of days has been playing in my head. I'm like, I need to just fucking dance this out., oh, I just like bouncing around my house to walking on sunshine.

Shakira: I you know, the way that you use music is and I use it too. But the way that you use it in this as a therapeutic form of like, uplifting your mood is so that's exactly what it's there for. But it's also so not opposite, but like Oh, yeah, like you said, I want to feel like I want to feel deep feelings I want I want to hurt. I want to feel the pain of what's happening behind. You know the song and the lyrics. I want to feel the melancholy like you said, I want to be moved all of those things, so I rarely reach for things. This is interesting. And I rarely reach for things that, you know, are more uplifting. I rarely reach for it, but I fucking love that song. I love a pop song. I love it.

Jill: I wonder if it's because I don't hear and connect to the lyrics that I'm not down that path for the I want to, you know, I want to feel the music. I want to know why it's written. I want to know what it's about because I don't get that deep with it. I'm surface. I'm a surface music. I'm a surface music person. That's all I'm gonna say.

Shakira: you ever surface? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, we've been, you know, we've been going strong for roughly 40 years, me and music we've Sure. You know, we'd have a really we have a deep connection with each other. So maybe like you said, I don't know if it has to be anything. So my thought, Yeah. Here's here's, I don't know if its surface, if what you're seeking out of music is to feel uplifted. Mm hmm. I don't think that surface level I think like, you're like, I have the song in my head. And that lifts me and I want to play it. So I'm gonna dance. And the way that I feel like the interconnection between all those things is actually like, that's, that is deep. That is like the beauty of what music can do. It connects you to other things to other feelings to have movement. Like, that's really fucking cool.

Jill: And I think it's my opportunity to play.

Shakira: Yeah. Yeah. I like yeah, I love that. I love that. A guy that I dated a long time ago, who shall remain nameless. Yes. He was very much into a deeper, darker metal scene. And what he, we would send, we would send each other Spotify playlist, right, because we were both like, this is this is the this is our language. So the way we talk, we lived. the way we breathed. And this helps me sort of see a little bit into you like, that is what I love about music, like you can sort of see into someone's psyche a bit. He would send me this really crazy shit. And I can't think of the names of the bands right now. I'll have to have to go back and maybe I'll, I'll go back to my Spotify playlist, like I mentioned who the bands are, but there was one particular band who he sent me. And I want to say it was more on like the dark. You know, funeral Doom, we'll call it that sort of genre of metal.

Jill: Jesus, I can't even imagine. Yeah,

Shakira: dude. Like, it literally scared me. Like, I remember having headphones on and listening. I was like, I can't listen to this. Like, I feel like I'm, I'm going I've sold my soul to the devil, and I'm going to die. I'm not gonna wake up from the sleep, something's gonna come out of my stomach, like Freddy Krueger out of the bed and just like, scratch. It was terrifying. So when we he asked me like, Well, what did you think of that playlist was like, I couldn't finish it. It's terrifying. Like, I don't watch scary movies and I don't like scary music. And he said, That's the beauty of music. It can allow you to feel all emotions. It doesn't have to sound a certain way. Like it's the like, what kind of emotions are coming up? What do you hear in that thing, the association of emotions that don't have to be attached to who and how I'm feeling right now. Or in that moment of listening to it, like just sort of experiencing it from the outside. Being detached maybe from that thing. It was such a mind blowing thing for me, because I think I always thought I had to be in the state of the music. Yeah, and have music sort of complement that state, whereas experiencing it from this end, and it was like, I can be an observer of this thing that is bringing up a lot of particular kind of emotion. And for me at that time, it was fear. Sort of not attached to it. And I listened to it again. I was like, oh, yeah, this is really fucking scary, but I can feel like the fear in me, but it's not real. Right? And it's not yours. And it's not mine. It's not mine. That was mind blowing for me. It totally changed the way that I listened to all things it made me able to. It gave me the ability to be empathetic in a way that I don't think I ever considered. Music has helped me build empathy with you know, other people, like don't have to like what other people like, right I can experience it from like, oh, this makes me feel this way, but I can see. Perhaps why someone else can be connected to it, or maybe a bunch of people can be connected to it. This isn't my plug for Radiohead, by the way I see your face.

Jill: In my head, like just this music conversation relates to everything as far as like what people like and don't like, where you can have an appreciation for a person and not necessarily be attached to their opinions, their likes and their dislikes.

Shakira: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. It was great. It was really it was such a Yeah, that was the one thing I'll take from my relationship. Just the one.

Jill: All right, just, it's just one thing, and everything else can go to hell. And speaking of the devil. well, so this was, this was fantastic. Since this is not at all where this conversation was gonna go today. And I think we keep saying this in every episode, like this is just where it's gonna go. Like, we talked about what the schedule was, what the topics were, and here we are. We're just gonna talk about whatever the fuck comes up. And whatever we want, you just have to, you know, be a part of it, to experience it and just know that this is how it goes. Yeah. Welcome to the friendship, everybody.

Shakira: Yeah, this is exactly how our conversations go.

Jill: absolutely. I mean, we have every time I come and stay with you. I get home and Jeff's like, What did you guys do? Nothing. Like, where did you go? Nowhere. So you just sit around Kira's place? Absolutely. Yeah. That's what we did, we walked and got some food, maybe had some shit delivered? And we just hung out.

Shakira: Yeah, it's so hard to put like words around, like what we talked about in this. So I'm really glad that we're capturing this as a marker, but it's really hard. If someone if, you know, I had a partner and they asked me like, how was that? Like, it was great. Would you do it? Like I don't know. Literally what I would say? I don't know. I don't know. Stuff talked about I don't know, a bunch of shit. You know.

Jill: All kinds of stuff. We solve the world's problems. And we're going to talk about more tomorrow. Yeah, yeah. There are more problems to be solved.

Shakira: Yeah, we'll be here all day.