Ep. 12: Being with Grief and Loss

Jill: How are you today?

Shakira: Good. I was enjoying our conversation.

Jill: I know. That's one of my favorite parts about recording our podcast, is our pre-show conversation.

Shakira: Maybe we should just start, hit record the minute we get on the phone.

Jill: I think so. Because we already had, in that conversation, like four conversations. I think that would have been fantastic for others to hear. We'll do that in

Shakira: Yeah, hit record. I like it. future.

Jill: Hit record. Yeah. All right. How are we feeling today?

Shakira: I think as I said, a little tired. Yeah, a little tired, shaken up. It's gray. I know it's worse for you, so we won't go into that too much. It's gray. It was a little damp this morning. It was a beautiful weekend, or beautiful day yesterday and Friday was gorgeous. Maybe a little like, you know, again, like reflective this month. This is a really interesting time now that we're talking about stuff. April now seems to be a time of several like losses. Lets see, I'm 43 now so 20 years ago. April is the anniversary of my sexual assault, 20 years ago. And it's also the anniversary of the end of a really meaningful friendship for me. And I think April is starting to be packed in with this time of a need for me to be really intentional about my self care and how I comfort myself. What I don't think and I'm think I'm now just now saying this out loud because I really haven't like tie this all together. What I've been doing mindlessly I've been like really hard on myself. Yeah, like incredibly hard on myself. And like fighting for for self compassion and like almost looking for it within myself rather than like, reaching out to people. You know, sharing about it, talking about it. Yeah. So I think I'm just recognizing that in talking to

Jill: Interesting. All right, then. I'm only laughing because you. I'm reflecting on what you're saying. And thinking about where I'm at. Today, I would say I'm also in sort of like this tired, low sort of mood. And if I reflect on my March. I feel like my March is turning into your experience of April. For me, my mom passed away on March 1. And then when I was young, at the age of eight, on March 3, we lost our home to a fire. So just thinking about March as that month of loss and I guess I'm just like in again in our conversation thinking about what March signified and like now coming into April thinking that oh, it's spring, all things are new, fresh beginnings and just sitting in the well did I really deal with March? Or do I just kind of like numb myself? Plug my ears, close my eyes, lah, lah, lah. And here we are in April, everything is fixed all is fine and when you were talking about just kind of like beating yourself up and in each moment being like oh have compassion have grace and then in the next moment, just like wanting to be numb and not wanting to deal with anything and just kind of continuing that cycle of I can handle this on my own, you're okay, everything is fine, too, oh, no, it's not have grace, you know.

Shakira: yeah, it's honoring the feelings that may or may not be as big as they were at the time of them happening and giving ourselves the permission to do that. I feel it's a little bit what I was, you know, yesterday I had lunch or brunch I guess with a friend. We went to a really fun event which I'll talk about another time. Well, it was fun for me. It was not fun for her. I'll put it to you that way. She lasted about four and a half minutes before it was like time to exit. We ended up going to brunch and brunch was delicious at Longman and Eagle. Next time you're in town we'll go. It was fucking delicious. Oh my god. I can't even talk about it. I can talk about food all day. It's in Logan Square. Oh shit and I lost my train of thought. Because I was thinking about the event.

Jill: I was thinking about the food. I saw you licking your lips.

Shakira: I was thinking about the bacon wrapped, wait a bacon stuffed sausage breakfast sandwich. If that makes sense?

Jill: It sounds great. Doesn't have to make sense.

Shakira: A patty of sausage with bacon wrapped around it and then like you know the bacon is crispy and the sausage perfect. And a homemade English muffin with cheese a fried egg and whatever. Like there's strawberry mostarda which is really like an Italian jam that has like a little tang but super sweet. GIRLLLLL!

Jill: So this is how we get through April. ,

Shakira: Girl. Thank you. And on that note, that's exactly how I've been getting through April and eating my ass off. Eating. This is it, oh see, okay, maybe this is exactly where we needed to go as far as like the feelings of loss and grief and shame. But for me eating in the absence of drugs or alcohol or you know, whatever other numbing substances that I may have chosen in the past to not be in my own body. Food has become like the thing, and I've been sharing a lot lately about how what I've been doing at night is ordering fucking McDonald's because you can order McDonald's delivery. I'll be fine all day. And then come, like nine o'clock. It's like, I mean, what's the matter? There's nothing wrong with it? It only takes 10 minutes to get here, it's fine. It's just french fries, but I can't just order french fries. You know, I have to order you know, the cheeseburger and a chocolate shake. I'm gonna fucking do it, then at that point, you know, I've done that. And then I'll eat it. And like, all of a sudden, the dopamine, I can feel the dopamine, I can now go to sleep. Sure that for me is very much like how I would drink, I would absolutely, be fine or not fine. You know, I will say there was a certain period of time when I was only at night. And right before bed, especially before bed and I would hold off, hold off and then you know, I'd be like laughah, fuck it, what's one more glass or two more glasses or whatever? Pound it and then like the dopamine, the feeling of I can sleep now. And then waking up with shame and guilt.

Jill: It also sounds like maybe a switch that's available because you're a food person, right? So in the explanation of going to brunch and really enjoying the food. And you know the experience as well. Because you and I are similar in the experience of that. But like you honestly super enjoy food as well. It's not necessarily all food or food is the thing. It's just these late night dopamine hits that you're looking for us to help you release from your day to get you into a place where you're ready for bed.

Shakira: Yeah, it's not food at all has nothing to do with food. If it wasn't food, it would be buying something. If it wasn't buying something. It would be sex. If it wasn't sex, it would be you know, I don't fucking know what what else is there?

Jill: You seem to hit on all of them. Drugs, alcohol, shopping, food, sex.

Shakira: Yeah, exactly. You know, it's literally isn't about that. It's about what am I trying to not feel? What am I trying to ignore? Or what am I trying to distract myself with? Yeah, what am I avoiding? That's really what it's about. And sometimes, I don't even know what it is. I'm putting the thread together. I'm putting everything in context. I'm putting it in context of environment, of time, of current behavior, of past behaviors. The picture is forming in front of me. And it's like, okay, now that I know what it is, you know, can I catch it? At the point of wanting to make the decision and I always go back to that saying of playing the tape forward. You know, when I'm, if I can, you know, not always the case, sometimes I just black out and do the ordering and all of a sudden it's here and I'm like, Oh, fuck it's here.

Jill: Gotta eat it. I just spent fifteen bucks.

Shakira: Oops, I didn't realize I did that. Thinking a little bit before. What is that thing that I need to think about before I hit order? You know, pause.

Jill: We were chatting about this a little bit in our pre-conversation of that high vibe, low vibe. Knowing when you're in that low vibration, what's the question that's going to spark a new direction? What am I avoiding? What am I feeling? Having that conversation with self. I mean, for me, I journal that question. And then I just write out stream of consciousness, a stream of, unconsciousness, whatever. And just kind of like get it all out onto the page and then start to see what that threat is and then in a perfect world, or in the ideal world of moving yourself forward. Then taking that action and going oh, okay, well, I really don't want the french fries. Those are only going to last me for the next five minutes. And what else can I be doing for myself to go to sleep? Is it a meditation? Is it moving in my body with some you know, stretching or a yin poses or whatever, you know, like, for those of us that are Yogi trained or have taken Yin classes, doing different movements to help support sort of our body to relax and feel safe and get comfortable before we go to bed.

Shakira: Starting from the outside is kind of what I was thinking that when you were talking about starting with the body. Identifying where in the body there may be some tension or some discomfort. Maybe not tension, but like some discomfort. And it doesn't mean like physical, Oh, my muscles are sore or my joints. I mean, it could mean that. When I think about and when I asked the question, where do I feel it? Where do I feel grief? Where do I feel loss? It varies, but I can think of the emptiness that I would feel in the center part of my body. Maybe an emptiness in my stomach. Maybe, a lack of feeling, a numbness in my chest. Or, you know, as grief wants to rise, like the lump in my throat, right. And the lightness in my head, like, those are some of the things I can use to describe at least what the loss feels like. Like I said, as the years passed, since I've lost a deep friendship, and when I think about it, it's like a heaviness in my heart. But literally right over my heart, a real deep, sad, heaviness. And yeah, the loss feels very arie in my head in my brain, like, it literally feels like there's something missing. Like there's space, that maybe is getting used to the fact that there is space. Now, when it was so filled with maybe more joy and more laughter and more intimacy that felt warm, it feels a little cool. Yeah, I think I appreciate that, like, the starting from the outside and then going in, and then how can I tend to it?

Jill: I was just gonna say, then how can you tend to it? Like, how can you within yourself create that sense of warmth, that sense of intimacy, that you've been missing from those different things? And it's something that I've been working on as well. And, I also think about, in this question of, how do we work with loss and grief, how do we move forward? It's outside of our loss and grief of people. It's the loss of like what you said, situations, it's the grieving of a life that we thought we were going to have or where we thought we were going. We can grieve all the things that we've lost. And each one of those, I think, hit us all very differently, depending upon the attachment that we had, for that person, that situation, that career, that job, whatever, you know, but we can start in the same exact place that you where going with this is that awareness to self, what is it that I'm currently experiencing? And just allow yourself to answer that question, honestly, trying to remove the judgment of how it should feel how you should behave, what this should be, like how long this should have taken, and allowing yourself to just be with whatever comes up for you. And giving yourself that space to really sit with it and how you're feeling about it.

Shakira: Mm hmm. Yeah, I mean, the first step sounds like a pause. Whether it's conscious or unconscious, but like, just hold on, you know, I think I'm saying that to myself. Before I reach for something that tells me that I need it, even though I know that thing is harmful, or can be harmful, or maybe just like, not aligned with like, the path I want to take or the decision or direction I want to take doesn't have to be harmful. So much stuff like this is out of alignment.

Jill: This doesn't feel like it's really serving me.

Shakira: This feels like, you know, something I don't want to deal with you know.

Jill: well, and I think it's trusting our intuition. Like you said, like you're feeling in your body, this sense of loss, this grief, where is it sitting? And then tapping back into the place that we know within ourselves that we can trust to say or to ask ourselves, is the thing that I'm about to do right for me in this moment? Or is it not right for me and start to really heal into your body in that way? I was having this experience. I mean, we talked about this last week as far as like going to the power vinyasa class, and I realized on Friday when I went which was my last session of hanging out with the people that I wanted to take a class with. I realized in that class that my body does not want to be moving in that way right now. And I really felt that I was doing myself a disservice by being in that class. because I'm forcing myself to do something that I thought I wanted to do in the exchange for having a connection with somebody that I wanted to have a connection with. And the entire message that I heard in my body was Rest. Rest. Please just rest. Like, please try. Stop, please stop forcing me to do something that I don't want to be doing.

Shakira: Yeah. Yeah. Is this worth the price of not listening to your body? I think that, that question. Especially for me, in regards to the situation where I had to end a friendship. That just did not fit anymore with where, it was not aligned to the path that I wanted to move forward with. Yet, I can still grieve like all of the pieces that brought me so much joy. And I think as you were describing, like, all the layers of grief, I remember how you put it. Sorry, I was totally listening. I was but I was in my head and thinking like, Oh, no that's a really good point. And the point was, as we, what we discover along the way, like all the things that make up the thing that we're grieving about, they don't all happen at once. Like, I wish it was like, okay, you know, I got five weeks or I'm sorry, five weeks, five days of bereavement, you know, back to work.

Jill: Got my checklist done.

Shakira: Yep. All right. I've checked off the box.

Jill: I sat with it, I got angry. Right, like the 12 steps of sobriety, like, yeah, you're gonna go through the 12 weeks, we're good.

Shakira: I've done that doesn't happen that way. I mean, it's constant. That's just it. Like it's constant. It's, you're always doing the work. And you never know when that grief that is gonna pop up. You never know when you're reminded. Henceforth, the April, you know, sort of milestone that I just thought of that I'm reminded like, oh, wow, you know, this is when things sort of fell apart, or this is when it became very clear to me that this was out of alignment. And, you know, and I remember feeling then like, Fuck, I don't, I don't want to let this go. I don't want this to end. But I also recognize that we have to end this. Not we, I have to do and serve what's best for my body and for what's best for what's coming up. Yeah, yeah. What about in those situations where you don't have any control? i It's like, you're not making a decision. It's really, you know, there's a death. How you, I guess, is there? Is there a difference?

Jill: I don't know that there is a difference. I mean, I've experienced death in both ways of sudden, as well as knowing that this was going to happen. And I think, for me, in losing my mom, like, it wasn't a surprise that she had passed away, it was just a surprise that she had passed away at that time, right, because she just wasn't a healthy person towards the end. And it was not really a surprise in that regard. But then in the the woman that I helped for 14 months that was dying of ALS, like seeing her every week, and watching her body totally deteriorate, as she is trapped towards the end, in her mind, unable to speak, that was almost harder in watching her go through that experience, but yet humbling, to know that all through it, I could still find her spirit. Like because she had such this. She was strong, she was funny, she was feisty, like even in just the way she would move her eyes. Or if she would giggle a little bit, I could still see her spirit. And so I think, for me in thinking of that death, I don't know, I guess I still find myself attaching to what I was grateful for in that person, and still connecting to the spirit of who they were to be able to help me get through those moments of sadness, I allow the sadness and connect with what light they brought to my life, if that makes sense.

Shakira: It makes total sense.

Jill: I do the same with friendship. Right that I've exact passed on from because I, I do believe that people are in and out of our lives for reasons. And I'm okay with ending friendships because they served for the purpose that they needed to serve at that time of my life, if that makes sense. So just sort of grieving and being grateful for the time that I had with that person and how they got me through that time and what I learned from them to get me to where I am now.

Shakira: The best way for me to be able to do that and honor. And thank you for articulating that for me too, because I think what you articulated is exactly how I feel. That it almost I don't wanna say doesn't matter. It does matter. And it is a little different. Between like a living end and a dying end, you know, of a relationship doesn't matter. I can't remember what I was gonna say again, my coffee hasn't kicked in.

Jill: That'll happen. And I'm on the flip. I've had too much coffee already today.

Shakira: Yeah, shit, where was I? Yeah, yeah, wow, I think I'm in my head right now with like, how if I have ended, or said goodbye to or honored the end of something in a compassionate way. I think I still have some work to do on that, for sure. With those that are no longer here, it's a little easier, you don't have any choice. But for those that you need to end for those things, relationships that you need end, I know, I have some work to do to revisit how compassionate I was with the end of that thing. And if it was in a way that honors who I am today, or who I want it to be then. And I'm not sure if that's always the case for me. So for me, that means like, I have to do a bit of an inventory on that. Those relationships that I may have ended in maybe not the most honest or compassionate way, like, yeah, just to them, but to myself.

Jill: I hear forgiveness of how it may have ended in a way that doesn't align with who you are now. In giving yourself compassion for you did what you knew in that time. And now you get to go back to honor yourself in a way that feels right for you. If that's giving a call, if that's writing a letter that never gets sent, right, but just I think about releasing it from the body in some way, shape, or form, like getting it out of the head. You know, me I'm a big fan of journaling, like getting it out onto paper, burning it, letting it be what it was, and releasing it back into the universe with with love and light, you know? Yeah. Well, thanks to our friend, Adam, for that thought, process a conversation for today. Ah, all right, take away outside of your inventory.

Shakira: I'd like to be intentional about pausing this week, before I make a decision or a choice that at the moment doesn't feel in alignment with my path, it's sort of that new play the tape forward statement again, and for anyone you know, who's grieving and who may or may not be conscious or aware of their choices, to invite them to do the same to pause. Because thing is, it does get easier time does, you know, help put some space between the the level of painI felt in grief. But it's always like I said very interesting that even after 20 plus years for one, you know, traumatic event to a year and another or whatever, a month from the you know, or two months I think prior now since the death of a dear friend, it does get a little easier. So to like allow myself like I would I would do for me what I would ask someone that I've maybe too embarrassed to ask to do for me, which is like just love me, listen to me , hold me, let me cry in your lap. Just let me watch TV with you and not say a word. And if you're lucky enough to have people that are willing to do that, then ask them to do it. Well, that and

Jill: Well, that and if you need that solitude to allow yourself to do those exact same things with yourself to just sit on the couch and cry at the Little Mermaid like I like to do or, you know, color. Just allow yourself to do what feels right. That's going to give you that warmth and that comfort that you need.

Shakira: For sure. Awesome. It passes. It does.

Jill: Yeah. All right. Thanks, friend.

Shakira: Oh, yeah. Thanks, Adam. Thanks.

Jill: Cheers. Adam are obsessed, podcast listener. We we love you and we appreciate your time for the questions. All right until next time my friends.